Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

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Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  pak on Thu 4 Sep 2008 - 20:51

Hello!
Is there a source available for sunken and damaged German or German operated ships along the coast of Norhtern-Norway during the war?
I have found
Chronik des Seekrieges 1939-1945
and also from Chronik des Seekrieges 1939-1945.

But it takes a lot of work to single out the interesting information from this.

/pak

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  Bjørn on Sun 7 Sep 2008 - 17:16

Hello!
The sources you give, are very useful and interesting. I have used them a lot.
I am not aware of any other in-depth online source. The book by Steen, : Norges sjøkrig 1940—1945, is very good.

Did you have anything particular in mind, please ask here. There are several visitors on this forum with a huge knowledge.

B.

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  pak on Sun 7 Sep 2008 - 21:22

Hello!

I have the past year or so gotten more and more interested in what happend on the Polar-front. The Gebrigsarmee, the fighting off the North-Norwegian coast, at first the German capital ships, Allied convoys, and now later on also the German convoy traffic to and from Kirkenes.

What I want to do is to try to capture the information and present it on a timeline, and make it easily available on the net.
Something like this: A test timeline.

And what I had most difficulties to find was information about the German convoys and losses. I agree that "Chronik des Seekrieges 1939-1945" is very good and gives a lot of information. study
I am in the process of trying to use it, but if there are other more "focused" sources out there the work would be easier Very Happy

I don't expect to come up with anything revolutionary doing this, but it might be easier to understand the chronology of events. First for myself, and the hopefully for others too. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

And I will try to find "Norges sjøkrig 1940—1945". Thanks for the tip Smile

/pak

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  Terje Langoy on Mon 8 Sep 2008 - 22:15

I’ve had a brief glance into Whitley’s “German Coastal Forces of World War Two” and made a compilation related to German destroyers and mine clearance vessels.

But first of all, don’t let these ships slip your timeline.

- 09.04.1940: The coastal monitors P/S Norge and Eidsvold are torpedoed by German destroyers in the harbour of Narvik.

- 11.04.1940: The destroyers Wilhelm Heidkamp (Z-21) and Anton Schmitt (Z-22) are torpedoed by British destroyers while at anchor in the harbour of Narvik.

- 13.04.1940: The destroyers Georg Thiele (Z-2) Wolfgang Zenker (Z-9) Bernd von Arnim (Z-11) Diether von Roeder (Z-17) and Hans Lüdemann ( Z-18 ) are scuttled in Rombaksfjord during The Second Battle of Narvik.

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How do I switch off the extremely annoying auto-smilie that pops up whenever I try to write (18) = ( 18 )
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* The destroyers Thiele, von Arnim and Lüdemann were all scuttled after severe battle damage; Zenker was scuttled after she ran out of fuel and ammunition; von Roeder was also scuttled but had actually been damaged beyond repair already three days earlier.

Three other destroyers were also sunk in The Second Battle of Narvik. Erich Koellner (Z-13) was destroyed by enemy fire at Djupvik after being partially immobilized and then utilized as a floating battery; Erich Giese (Z-12) was sunk by British forces in the harbour while Hermann Künne (Z-19) was beached in Herjangsfjord.

- 29.03.1942: Destroyer Z-26 is sunk in the Barents Sea after action with HMS Trinidad and Eclipse

- 02.05.1942: Hermann Schoemann (Z-7) is sunk in the Barents Sea after action with HMS Edinburgh and destroyers.

- 25.11.1942: Minesuchboote M-101 is sunk after collision with the merchant “Levante” near Namsos.

- 31.12.1942: Friedrich Eckoldt (Z-16) is sunk in The Battle of Barents Sea after engagement with the British cruiser HMS Sheffield.

- 17.07.1943: Minesuchboote M-346 is torpedoed by Soviet submarine S-56 off Gamvik, Tanafjord.

- 12.08.1944: Minesuchboote M-468 is mined west off Namsos

- 21.10.1944: Minesuchboote M-31 is torpedoed by Soviet MTB’s off Honningsvaag.

And if you divert some further attention to this link:

www.sjohistorie.no/seksjoner/nasjonalt_skipsregister?registertype=ww2&type=skip

…You may also find a few merchants, some under German control, sunk in Northern Norway. I found these after just a couple of minutes.

- 09.06.1940: D/S Ariadne, sunk by German airplanes west off Røst

- 21.11.1941: D/S Bessheim, torpedoed outside Hammerfest

- 15.02.1942: D/S Birk, mined off Kirkenes

According to Whitley’s chapter upon the coastal forces, the Germans tried to establish S-boat flotillas in Artic waters after Barbarossa commenced but conditions were too harsh and they accomplished nothing. But the operational histories of the VP-boats may be an area of great interest. Unfortunately I hold no information about them but Gröner might be the right author if you want to look closer into that.

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  pak on Mon 8 Sep 2008 - 23:22

Terje!

Thanks for your tips Smile

/pak

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  odybvig on Tue 9 Sep 2008 - 20:49

If you are going to do some serious work about the sunken and damaged German or German operated ships along the coast of Norhtern-Norway during the war, you have to go to the primary sources.
First you have to check: Kommandierender Admiral der norwegischen Polarküste*. This command was in charge of all coastline activity (sea) from Bodø to Petsamo. You also want to check the subcommands :Seekommandant Hammerfest*, Seekommandant Harstad*, Seekommandant Kirkenes*, Seekommandant Narvik*, Seekommandant Tromsö* and Kommandant Altafjord.
You will not find these online (yet), but have to get it on microfilm from NARA. And of course, they are only in german language.
Books and internet sources are always second hand stuff and normally not especially adhere. This is because most dont use primary sources. Just recently we have seen some work that really use good sources.

Best
Olve Dybvig

* These I have digital in pdf. format

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships - Southern-Norway

Post  Cutstone on Wed 10 Sep 2008 - 2:20

This was very interesting Olve. I have for quite a few years now been working on a book about shipwrecks outside Sola in Rogaland from 1558 up until today.
Here we are lucky to have an excellent book by Øistein Berge covering most of the shipwrecks during WWII in this area.
BUT, the sources you mention, what do they cover in relation to shipwrecks?
Where do one get hold of the "sjøforklaring", the court proceedings after a maritime accident during the war? Are these in German archives?
Atle
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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  pak on Wed 10 Sep 2008 - 23:02

I am serious about doing the timeline (something like the test timeline), and hopefully as correct as possible.
What comes next, I do not know ...

Olve, you are of course right about using primary sources....
And your sources will come in handy when working with the timeline.

/pak

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  odybvig on Thu 11 Sep 2008 - 12:48

The german navypapers will tell you which ship that sunk where, when and why. (MS Bunndyr Brt 2000 sunk near Knotheim in Dustefjord due to hit by a Mine, 8 aug 1942).
The the court proceedings after a maritime accident for norwegian boats will be found at the Statsarkiv in the area that the boat was from. A boat from Bergen that sunk outside Sola will be held in Bergen. You will also find some at the Riksarkiv. This is for norwegian boats
All court proceedings regarding German boats will be found in Hamburg

Regarding Sola, the german sources will be Kommandierender Admiral der norwegischen Westküste and Seekommandant Stavanger
But the navy papers stop in january 1945 (or dec 1944). So for he rest of the war, the info will be found in the papers of 20 (Geb.) Armee. Normally in the Anlageband zum Kriegstagebuch, Tagesmeldungen für Hö.Kom. XXL

Best
Olve

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Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  Cutstone on Thu 11 Sep 2008 - 15:18

Thank you Olve.
All the norwegian court hearings I have, but am looking for the german ones. I do have a few, but will have to go to Hamburg. Luckily my wifes sister lives there so since there is a baptism coming up soon down there, I'll have to go.
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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

Post  pak on Thu 11 Sep 2008 - 20:55

odybvig wrote:The german navypapers will tell you which ship that sunk where, when and why. (MS Bunndyr Brt 2000 sunk near Knotheim in Dustefjord due to hit by a Mine, 8 aug 1942).

Initially, at least, this is just what I am looking for.

/pak

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Re: Source for damaged and sunken ships along - North-Norway

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