German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 0:01

Not fully laden as you mentioned either mostly empty with light loads or entirely empty from towing Gliders.

Empty weight: 4,000 kg (8,830 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 7,000 kg (15,450 lb)


Data from Wolfgang Wagner "Hugo Junkers Pionier der Luftfahrt - Seine Flugzeuge" Bernard & Graefe Verlag, Bonn 1996 ISBN 3-7637-6112-8 (in German) p. 342

Did you actually bother reading the post where I showed that you were using the figures for the WRONG AUSFRUNG of Ju52 as of 1939/40???

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 0:04

Plenty room on deck, especially if 3/4 of wings removed. do I have to explain everything to you?

WHERE is there enough room on the crowded deck of a passenger liner? On the volleyball court? Drain the First Class swimming pool??? scratch



SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 0:05

10.000 to 13.000 so what? Still a meaningless point. 3000 pounds. 52 has wider tires & designed more for grass that a Fairy battle is.

Black Hornet

Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 0:16

10.000 to 13.000 so what? Still a meaningless point. 3000 pounds.

LOL right back to all your old obfustication Rolling Eyes

It's NOT 13,000lbs for a Ju52 - a loaded Ju52 landing on Iceland with men or cargo will be around or just under the Junkers Ju 52/3mg3e's 20,330 lb minus used fuel.

That's TWICE as much as a fully loaded/fueled/armed Fairey Battle Rolling Eyes

Even it's empty weight - that's empty of fuel too - is nearly a ton and a half heavier than a Fairey Battle Laughing


52 has wider tires & designed more for grass that a Fairy battle is..

The Fairey Battle was designed for grass runways - that's why it could be sent to and operated with the Advanced Air Striking Force in France in 1940...

SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 0:19

Well there you go, they could both operate on grass in Iceland. How bout that. Stuka still weighs less than both of em.


Last edited by Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 0:59; edited 1 time in total

Black Hornet

Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 0:32

Well there you go, they could both operate on grass in Iceland. How bout that..

No, they could both operate on grass runways that had been cleared, levelled and were long enough for them to operate from.

Remember - only TWO such places were found in all of Southland for the Fairey Battles....so what about the twice as heavy Ju52/3mg3e's?

I wonder how many there were in Eastland, within range of Norway, IN 1940? You were challenged on that before, and failed to come up with any contemporary evidence at all.

SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 1:48

Nah, they didn't clear & level em in Russia, not enough time, have to fight, gotta get supplies in, find a flat ground & use it, but then you've been told this before. War is not all set piece organized stuff you might like to think. Eben Emanuel for example, 52's landed on dirt roads etc. Do what you gotta to get it done. Free education by the way. Enjoy.


3000 pounds again ain't twice as heavy, & Stukas still weigh less. 52's tires still wider also.

Eastland? Where is that?

Black Hornet

Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 2:14

Nah, they didn't clear & level em in Russia, not enough time, have to fight, gotta get supplies in, find a flat ground & use it, but then you've been told this before.

Ah, you mean on the Steppes, those hundreds if not thousands of square miles of flat farmland that had been continuously cultivated for centuries? With regular ploughing, harrowing and planting? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Eben Emanuel for example, 52's landed on dirt roads etc. Do what you gotta to get it done. Free education by the way. Enjoy.

O I DO enjoy the free education....by the way, you DO realise, don't you that Ju52 DIDN'T LAND as part of the Eben Emael operation??? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

3000 pounds again ain't twice as heavy

Now more plain ol' obfustication.

Let's use YOUR source....

A fully loaded Fairey Battle...
10,792 lb

A fully loaded Ju53/3mg3e...
20,330 lb

You can try to argue against those figures as much as you want - but facts are a bitch, aren't they?

SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 2:24

Again you were the one who mentioned lightly loaded JU 52 as being what would go to Iceland. Plus we already covered the empty ones ferrying the Gliders, neither of which weigh anyhere near that figure. I was gonna say I think you can do better, but perhaps not. facts are a bitch eh?

Black Hornet

Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 2:44

Again you were the one who mentioned lightly loaded JU 52 as being what would go to Iceland.

Not quite....

I mentioned that ONLY lightly-loaded Ju52s would have the extra tankage and range to reach Iceland, let alone anywhere except the Eastern coast.

Frankly, the idea of a lightly-loaded ANYTHING flying to Iceland as part of an invasion or as part of the resupply is absolutely ridiculous What's the point???

THAT's my point. The Law of Diminishing Returns. To actually REACH Iceland or anywhere useful in Iceland - for the road network did NOT go round the East coast in 1940! - means carrying a cargo so small as to be not worth either the risk (in having to fly 2 or 3 times as many flights to shift the same as one fully laden one!) OR the fuel in doing so.

Why on earth do you think IKARUS was cancelled because of the logistics of resupplying the island??? You cannot overcome the Law of Diminishing Returns; once you're IN it, you can't get out of the downward spiral of consumption.

Plus we already covered the empty ones ferrying the Gliders, neither of which weigh anyhere near that figure.

It doesn't matter if they're empty or not - they STILL need to land to refuel for the return flight - which means they're STILL restricted to useable runways, AND they still eat into your scant supplies of aviation spirit.

And even if a dry-tanked Ju52/3mg3e lands on iceland somewhere - IT still weighs well over a ton more than a Fairey Battle...

And to take off with full tanks to reach Norway means it takes on board over 1000Kgs of fuel IN Iceland.... over a imperial ton of fuel...meaning that a Ju52 that arrives on Iceland empty - leaves weighing nearly two and a half tons more than a Fairey Battle!

Yes, facts ARE a bitch... Wink

SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 2:45

You'll have to prove an empty JU 52 with full fuel tanks can't fly off grass before any of your nonsense can be granted any credence. & you can't because they did it all the time.

Black Hornet

Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 2:48

You'll have to prove an empty JU 52 can't fly off grass before any of your nonsense can be grated any credence. & you can't because they did it all the time

No, a Ju52 - like ANY suitable aircraft, can fly off FLAT grass, on ground that's dry enough NOT to be boggy, has NO obstructions or anything that would affect it's takeoff run.

Oh - and happens to be in the right direction to take off into the wind!!!

Do you know the parable of the Me262? Wink

SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 3:32

Gosh I wonder if that's why the landing grounds you referenced as lakes, Melgerdi, Sandskeid & Kaldadarnes were given top priority by the British? Nice & flat where the Germans taught Glider lessons in 1938.

Black Hornet

Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  SecondFront on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 3:38

Gosh I wonder if that's why the landing grounds you referenced as lakes, Melgerdi, Sandskeid & Kaldadarnes


No, I did NOT refer to those as "Lakes" - I said there was A lake (singular) in the north of Iceland the British were worried about German FLYINGBOATS landing in - Lake Myvatn

Now - do you know the parable of the Me262?

SecondFront

Posts : 130
Join date : 2011-09-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 14 Sep 2011 - 7:11

Nope, here's your exact quote. Covering melgerdi has nothing to do with a lake.


British sent troops to Melgerdi to cover landing grounds, why? distance from Trondheim to Melgerdi is 854 miles.

Quote:
Because the British feared flyingboat landings on the nearby lake, not Ju52s landing on the gravel strip! And of course to protect the RAF flyingboat base they opened at Akureyri.


The British were also worried that the Germans might airlift troops, as they had done with great success in their Norwegian Campaign. To guard against this, troops would drive east to the landing grounds at Sandskeiđ and Kaldađarnes. Lastly, troops would be sent by land to the harbour at Akureyri and the landing ground at Melgerđi in the north of the country.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fork





Black Hornet

Posts : 262
Join date : 2010-11-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Opaque Hornet on Sun 7 Sep 2014 - 0:33

Geirr Haarr is Norwegian and not British

Yes I know

Opaque Hornet

Posts : 45
Join date : 2013-09-18

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: German destroyers scuttled at Narvik.

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum