Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

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Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Sun 29 Jul 2012 - 7:01

The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth.



http://www.s377311931.websitehome.co.uk/index_files/Page5380.htm

Sommerfeld Tracking, named after German expatriate engineer, Kurt Joachim Sommerfeld, then living in England, was a lightweight wire mesh type of prefabricated airfield surface. it was a wire netting stiffened laterally by steel rods. This gave it load-carrying capacity while staying flexible enough to be rolled up.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 30 Jul 2012 - 0:49

No.46 Squadron (Hurricanes) had been sent to join No.263. On May 26th the new arrivals took off in their Hurricanes from H.M.S. Glorious, to attempt a landing on the Skanland airstrip where a wire mesh runway had been laid...........

http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0008.html

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Tue 31 Jul 2012 - 23:54

As an asides, it took 3 & 1/2 days to build a transport runway at Normandy.


The next need was for transport strips for the evacuation of wounded and for emergency supply. The first of these fields, 3500 feet in length and 140 feet wide, was operational by noon of D+3 days.

http://www.ixengineercommand.com/units/843rd/history/history04.php

& wounded aren't generally evacuated in single engined planes, supply as well not unsually single engined machines.

So much for Phylo.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Sat 4 Aug 2012 - 0:35

land based planes at Iceland using a stadium as runway, 1928-31.

In 1928 a new company established (John Alexander). Það starfaði til 1931 en heimskreppan og fleiri áföll urðu því að falli. It worked for 1931 but the Depression and other setbacks had to fall. Næstu tvö árin notuðu hollenzkir veðurathugunarmenn völlinn, sem hafði verið sléttaður og lagaður töluvert. Over the next two years using Dutch meteorological officers stadium, which had been predetermined and shaped smooth considerably.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=is&u=http://www.nat.is/travelguide/ahugav_st_reykjavikurflugvollur.htm&ei=-WSpS_uTNZn20gTX0ZnSAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBAQ7gEwBDgK&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Flugf%25C3%25A9lag%2B%25C3%258Dslands%2522%2B%252B1940%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


Link courtesy of Phylo.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 0:38

The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth.

http://www.s377311931.websitehome.co.uk/index_files/Page5380.htm

Sommerfeld Tracking, named after German expatriate engineer, Kurt Joachim Sommerfeld, then living in England, was a lightweight wire mesh type of prefabricated airfield surface. it was a wire netting stiffened laterally by steel rods. This gave it load-carrying capacity while staying flexible enough to be rolled up.

And how good was it? Rolling Eyes Let's see, shall we? You claimed 24 hours ago on AHF that Skanland was "up and running"...

In three formations they set course from Skånland west of Narvik. Each formation was lead by a navigating Swordfish. The runway at Skånland consisted of 700 metres of steel-meshed “sommerfelt” tracking laid on bare earth. Cross landed first. On the roll-out the wheels on his Hurricane started to sink into the too soft earth and the plane tipped over bending the propeller blades. There followed two successful landings, but then Flight Lieutenant Stewart tipped over and ended up inverted. Stewart was unhurt but his Hurricane was damaged beyond repair on site. After two more landings Cross ordered Flight Lieutenant P.G “Jamie" Jameson to continue with the remaining eight Hurricanes onwards to Bardufoss, which had solid earth runway. At Bardufoss all planes landed safely although one of them overshot the short runway and ran a few yards into the scrub.

Early next morning Cross led three Hurricanes off from Skånland in the Squadron’s first scramble. Actually only two got airborne. Pilot Officer Bunker tipped over on the take off due to the soft earth. The patrol did not make contact with German planes. Cross now decided to evacuate Skånland and after flying a patrol, all planes landed at Bardufoss.

The sortied aircraft didn't even return to Skanland before they abandoned ship and transferred to Bardofuss!

So much for Sommerfeld....



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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 0:46

So what? They still used it & proved it could & was used. Point worthless. All combat runways have accidents.

And it was built in snow in much more difficult terrain than one would find in flat snowless Iceland.

My claim of up and running still stands.


No.46 Squadron (Hurricanes) had been sent to join No.263. On May 26th the new arrivals took off in their Hurricanes from H.M.S. Glorious, to attempt a landing on the Skanland airstrip where a wire mesh runway had been laid...........

.........In bad weather and under heavy bombing, the two squadrons slogged on until June 7th. By then, 263 had flown 389 sorties over 12 days, been in combat 69 times and claimed 26 successes


26 successes, not bad eh?













http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/AtcherleyR.htm


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 0:54

land based planes at Iceland using a stadium as runway, 1928-31.

In 1928 a new company established (John Alexander). Það starfaði til 1931 en heimskreppan og fleiri áföll urðu því að falli. It worked for 1931 but the Depression and other setbacks had to fall. Næstu tvö árin notuðu hollenzkir veðurathugunarmenn völlinn, sem hafði verið sléttaður og lagaður töluvert. Over the next two years using Dutch meteorological officers stadium, which had been predetermined and shaped smooth considerably.

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=is&u=http://www.nat.is/travelguide/ahugav_st_reykjavikurflugvollur.htm&ei=-WSpS_uTNZn20gTX0ZnSAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBAQ7gEwBDgK&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Flugf%25C3%25A9lag%2B%25C3%258Dslands%2522%2B%252B1940%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

And did you bother finding out WHAT type of aircraft were flown in Reykjavik by the Royal Netherlands Meterological Institute in 1931? And are you quite sure the Icelandic word for "stadium" doesn't actually mean....sportsground? Laughing

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:00

Does it matter? Ju 52 & Stukas can fly off grass. Icelandic grass is stronger than continental European grass BTW.

th the German invasion of Norway, he was sent to organise the airfield at Bardufoss for the Gladiators of No 263 Sqn and later the Hurricanes of 46 Sqn. In order to make the landing ground safe. it was necessary to clear the snow from the runways. With limited resources, he was able to coerce the local population to undertake the task. With the situation in Norway becoming untenable the RAF personnel were ordered to evacuate and burn their aircraft. However, not wishing to lose valuable aircraft, he and 'Bing' Cross (OC, No 46 Sqn), decided to attempt the evacuation of the Hurricanes and Gladiators by landing them aboard HMS Glorious rather than destroying and abandoning them in Norway. The actual landing of the squadrons aboard the carrier was a complete success, but unfortunately it was sunk on it's way to Britain.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:03

So what? They still used it & proved it could & was used. Point worthless. All combat runways have accidents.

And it was built in snow in much more difficult terrain than one would find in flat snowless Iceland.

My claim of up and running still stands.

I'm afraid that in this you're standing on a point completely contradictory to known history...as any Norwegian member of the board here will tell you. Skanland was NOT "operational"; the British attempt to get it operational failed. Nearly half the aircraft that attempted to land there - once - crashed...and the ranking RAF officer that actually made it down decided to abandon the airfield completely in less than 24 hours Razz

No.46 Squadron (Hurricanes) had been sent to join No.263. On May 26th the new arrivals took off in their Hurricanes from H.M.S. Glorious, to attempt a landing on the Skanland airstrip where a wire mesh runway had been laid...........

.........In bad weather and under heavy bombing, the two squadrons slogged on until June 7th. By then, 263 had flown 389 sorties over 12 days, been in combat 69 times and claimed 26 successes

...operating from Bardofuss! Even your own source notes that! Laughing Laughing Laughing

http://www.s377311931.websitehome.co.uk/index_files/Page5380.htm

Cross now decided to evacuate Skånland and after flying a patrol, all planes landed at Bardufoss. Cross flew his own Hurricane, having been able to straighten the bent propeller. In the evening, 46 Sqn. had 15 of its remaining 16 Hurricanes operational at Bardufoss. From 0730 and through the night 46 Sqn flew patrols over Narvik to give cover to an allied attack. They did not sight any German planes. At 00:41 in the morning they had to stop flying due to fog at Bardufoss. At that time Ju 88’s and He 111.s from Trondheim arrived in the Narvik area and did a lot of damage to Royal Navy ships.

Later in the morning the weather at Bardufoss improved and 46 Sqn flew 15 missions that day. Now they made contact with the enemy. Flying Officers Mike Mee and Jack Lydall attacked two Ju 88s over the Ofotfiorden west of Narvik. Lydall was able to shoot one of them down. Three 3 3 Hurricanes, led by Jameson, attacked two water-borne Dormer Do 26 flying boats, hidden in a small cove in the Rombaksfjord east of Narvik. After four attacks both Dorniers were ablaze and sinking.

At 00.40. on the 29th (still light at that latitude). Jameson and his wingman Pilot Officer Jack Drummond shot down one He III each over the Ofotfiorden although Oberleutnant Egon Schmidt managed to crash-land the aircraft hit by Drummond in Swedish territory. Drummond’s Hurricane was hit by return fire and he had to bail out, and was picked up by the destroyer HMS Firedrake.

In the afternoon of 24th May, Pilot Officer Banks attacked and shot down a FW 200 Condor bombing Tromsø. The stricken aircraft fell at Dyrøy. In the evening, Lydall was able to shoot down a He 111, it made an emergency landing at Andøya. Probably hit by return fire from the Heinkel, Lydall had to make an emergency landing. He crash-landed in a small marsh on the western slop of Tjeldøy.

You really need to stop trying to claim they were operating from Skanland when they made all those claims/kills, for that would just be an outright lie. Think the board management here would like that?

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:10

Does it matter? Ju 52 & Stukas can fly off grass. Icelandic grass is stronger than continental European grass BTW.

Of course it matters! Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Remember your embarassing mistake on AHF when you claimed that the first aircraft giving joyrides on Iceland after WWI showed that German Ju52s and Stukas could operate from the island? THIS aircraft - Cecil Faber's Avro 504???



Remember your embarassing mistake when you claimed that the first aircraft operating a regular service on Iceland, a Junkers F.13, proved that Ju52s and Stukas could operate there? THIS aircraft? No



So, come on - you've had long enough to Google it....exactly WHAT aircraft did the Dutch meterologists operate from a sports field in 1931? Laughing




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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:29

Um, no Phylo, read it again. Snow cleared off with local help, Hurries & Gladiators did fly off it. Runway abandoned due to german advance, not unviability.

th the German invasion of Norway, he was sent to organise the airfield at Bardufoss for the Gladiators of No 263 Sqn and later the Hurricanes of 46 Sqn. In order to make the landing ground safe. it was necessary to clear the snow from the runways. With limited resources, he was able to coerce the local population to undertake the task. With the situation in Norway becoming untenable the RAF personnel were ordered to evacuate and burn their aircraft. However, not wishing to lose valuable aircraft, he and 'Bing' Cross (OC, No 46 Sqn), decided to attempt the evacuation of the Hurricanes and Gladiators by landing them aboard HMS Glorious rather than destroying and abandoning them in Norway. The actual landing of the squadrons aboard the carrier was a complete success, but unfortunately it was sunk on it's way to Britain.
. http://www.rafweb.org/Biographies/AtcherleyR.htm

Remember your embarrasing mistake in claiming Gliders would carry Trucks to Iceland? Remember your "really" embarrasing claim that the battle would take place in Iceland's interior? In the great glacier?? Then there was the claim Akeyuri was iced over & therefore impossible to land at, yet the British did exactly that? There were many more of these funnies, but it's gotten boring. You haven't won a point yet, its not a game.


Now we've established Sommerfelt worked in colder jagged terrain & climes of Norway, what can you offer us, ( other than your unsubstantiated opinion), that temporary fields wouldn't work in Iceland? Germans did use wood runways in Norway, hence Iceland should be a non-issue.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:42

Um, no Phylo, read it again. Snow cleared off with local help, Hurries & Gladiators did fly off it. Runway abandoned due to german advance, not unviability.

Yes - Hurricanes and Gladiators DID indeed fly off BARDOFUSS....not Skanland!

Remember your embarrasing mistake in claiming Gliders would carry Trucks to Iceland?

I seem to remember I was asking YOU how on earth trucks and earthmoving equipment was supposed to get to Iceland, seeing that the RN had control of the North Sea....

Remember your "really" embarrasing claim that the battle would take place in Iceland's interior? In the great glacier??

Really??? Are you QUITE sure *I* claimed that? Or did I perhaps actually direct you to the HISTORICAL stationing of a British battalion at Lake Myvatn as the British were initially worried immediately after Norway that the Germans could land troops in the island's interior by flying boat?

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:45

Then there was the claim Akeyuri was iced over & therefore impossible to land at, yet the British did exactly that?

Really? I seem to remember telling you that although the British outpost was AT Akeyuri... the gravel runway airfield serving the town was actually some kilometers AWAY, at Melgerdi Laughing

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:50

Now we've established Sommerfelt worked in colder jagged terrain & climes of Norway, what can you offer us, ( other than your unsubstantiated opinion), that temporary fields wouldn't work in Iceland? Germans did use wood runways in Norway, hence Iceland should be a non-issue.

Actually - your own source proves that Sommerfeld matting DIDN'T work when used at Skanland...as far as I can see it wasn't used at Bardofuss, the existing NoAAS runway was useable once cleared of snow.

Germans did use wood runways in Norway,...

I seem to remember they had to bring the wood with them.... Laughing

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 1:52

UM, no, you said Akeyuri was impassable as I mentioned.

No, Skanland used when snow cleared.

Germans could bring wood Egg Crate wood runway pieces to Iceland also. As usual, I have to do all the explaining.

No British battalion ever mentioned by you. Provide link if you can.


Dig the JU 52 on Plankedeke

http://www.scalewarbird.org/photo/Mk_V_Bilder/Tyske%20fly%2039-45/Junkers/slides/Junkers%20Ju%2052%20Norge%20Plankedekke.html


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 2:01

No British battalion ever mentioned by you. Provide link if you can

Really?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=164877&p=1458581&hilit=Myvatn#p1458581

To get from the few areas German troopcarrying aircraft could actually REACH in Eastland to the capital and the "major" towns in South- and Westland, they EITHER have to go around the NORTH of the island....and the British put observation posts by boat of flying boat in almost every settlement, and the Germans would encounter a battalion of troops as far East as Lake Myvatn...THEN at Melgerdi/Akureyri....THEN all the way round the North-West shoulder of the island and slap-bang into the REST of the British ground defences....

No, Skanland used when snow cleared

The RAF never returned to Skanland, I'm afraid. Your quoted passage refers to No 46 Sqn 's activities at and departure from Bardofuss. No.46 Sqn left Norway entirely only 13 days after the debacle at Skanland - there wasn't time to go back there! Laughing


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 2:05

and the Germans would encounter a battalion of troops as far East as Lake Myvatn...


Ha ha ha, thanks again for sharing. Funny stuff.



This is how it reads here, even funnier, "historical"

did I perhaps actually direct you to the HISTORICAL stationing of a British battalion at Lake Myvatn





So what they didn't go back, they ran aircraft on & off it in the worst possible conditions much further north than Iceland, ( in very short time, not 2 years of waiting for concrete to dry as you posit), on much rougher terrain. You still have no point or proof the Germans couldn't construct & use temporary fields there. They did it in Norway, as did British, would be easier in Iceland. you're still double bagels.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 2:11

Funny?

Well, as I DID mention - they don't actually have any choices about where they want to go and NOT encounter British troops - unless you intend to have them trekking over the Vatnajokull Glacier??? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 2:15

So what they didn't go back, they ran aircraft on & off it in the worst possible conditions much further north than Iceland

They CRASHED 3 of the seven aircraft they attenpted to land on it...then GAVE UP and flew the rest of No.46 Sqn on to Bardofuss.

( in very short time, not 2 years of waiting for concrete to dry as you posit)

And exactly WHERE did I say they used concrete for runways, or that it would take two years to dry?

You still have no point or proof the Germans couldn't construct & use temporary fields there.

They have to get engineers and earthmoving equipment and trucks etc. TO Iceland - when the British controlled the North Sea.


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 2:45

Easy to get equipment to Iceland, they did it easily at Norway where the British didn't control the sea.

Here's the 1940-41 Kaldadarnes material you posted.


The problems created by local circumstances at Kaldadarnes and elsewhere can sometimes be glimpsed in theNo. 264 Sqn history. Vitally, on the 23rd of May 1941, when Battles of No. 98 Sqn SHOULD have flown off to look for the Bismarck...
Before the Bismarck was located orders had already been issued for a Fairey Battle to patrol Denmark Strait in area 6530N 2430W 6630N 2300W, northwestwards as far as ice limit from first light, being relieved by two further Battles in rotation. The aircraft were to operate from Kaldadarnes as Melgerdi landing ground was unavailable owing to low cloud, and had orders carry out patrols to PLE. The first Battle took off at first light and proceeded to position 6530N 2530W, but had to abandon patrol owing to bad weather (continuous rain, ceiling 300 ft and visibility of 1000 yards to 3 miles). The weather at Reykjavík and Kaldadarnes was also very bad throughout the day

...this in the late Spring!

Work was still not progressing fast enough with local resources at Kaldadarnes;





Yes crashed 3 of 7, that means 4 succeeded. The Heinkel 111 even further north also succeeded. Which if anything proves German efforts in this direction were more successful than British.


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 2:55

Easy to get equipment to Iceland, they did it easily at Norway where the British didn't control the sea.


Exactly! But they DID control the North Sea and access to Iceland.

Yes crashed 3 of 7, that means 4 succeeded.

And you call THAT operational???? Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

P.S. things weren't even THAT rosy! That was just the events of the 26th....but on the 27th....

Early next morning Cross led three Hurricanes off from Skånland in the Squadron’s first scramble. Actually only two got airborne. Pilot Officer Bunker tipped over on the take off due to the soft earth.

The soft ground at Skanland actually claimed a FOURTH aircraft out of the seven! Laughing Laughing Laughing


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:00

The Heinkel 111 even further north also succeeded. Which if anything proves German efforts in this direction were more successful than British.

Really? You mean THIS account - http://forums-de.ubi.com/showthread.php

On AHF you posted up a VERY brief exerpt from that thread....neglecting to post up the REALLY interesting material! Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

A short time after the first "Kröte" station was set up on Spitsbergen in July 1942, the weather pilot Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak to ecploit a suitable position for another "Kröte" station on or near Nowaja Zemlya and attempted to land on 20 July on Meshdusharsskij Island At the end of the landing run, the wheels of the Heinkel 111 sank in the soft ground and the aircraft became blocked. The crew informed by radio the base at Banak of the mishap, and another aircraft took off, with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.

(but THEN what happened? - my note)

However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island and to set up there an automatic weather station in the coming months, when weather and the darkness of the polar night restricted the routine weather flights.

Meanwhile weather reconnaissance on the route to Nowaja Zemlya was flown about twice a week, the farthest position of turning back changing from the region of Belusha Buba to the coast of the northern island near Inostrantseva Bay.

On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak.

Two weeks later the attempt was repeated, the aircraft landed at the island on the now frozen ground, with an escorting aircraft Heinkel 111 watching the scene.

While assembling the weather station, a Soviet MBR-2 flying boat from Belusha Buba arrived and tried to attack, but after several attempts it was driven off by the escorting aircraft.

As the action was now revealed, it was decided to abandon the mission, the main components of the weather station were loaded in the plane, and after a successful take-off both aircraft headed for their home base.

A Soviet search party landed few hours later, but could discover no more than battery cases and antenna masts, the taxying tracks of the aircraft confirmed its successful departure.

No more attempts were made in 1942 to set up automatic weather stations "Kröte" by aircraft in that area, even few days after that failure, another station was set up on Bear Island by the same crew, not before a labour party to clean a landing strip was landing by parachute.


Not so successful after all, eh? In fact - even with the repairs made previously and the planking laid previously - not UNTIL the ground actually froze solid!


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:00

and the British put observation posts by boat of flying boat in almost every settlement,

Um, can we recall the German invasion is PRIOR to British landings?



So they left when it got cold, so what? The point was successful A/C landings were demonstrated in hostile cold climate. This has nothing to do with whether the radio station itself was a success. try & keep on point eh?

15 hours to construct a runway for a Heinkel 111. & the material was carried in a plane. Impressive.

HE 111
Unladen weight 19,136 lbs (8680kg)
Laden weight 30,864 lbs (14000kg)
http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/0017.html

At the end of the day, we can conculsively state you haven't the 'foggiest' regarding temporary/auxiliary combat runways.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:09

So they left when it got cold, so what? The point was successful A/C landings were demonstrated in hostile cold climate. This has nothing to do with whether the radio station itself was a success. try & keep on point eh?

Er....no; you've got it arse-about face AGAIN....

They landed once to survey the area....and got bogged down Razz The Luftwaffe had to deliver a team of engineers to build a plank runway to get them all off again....

Then, when they attempted to land a SECOND time to actually PLACE the station in the surveyed location - they couldn't; even with the plank runway sitting there from before....they couldn't land because the ground was too soft.

The THIRD time they tried, and succeeded...was thus once the ground UNDER the plank runway had actually frozen...

In other words - they didn't leave when it got cold - they could only go back when it got cold!

Do try and keep up....


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:11

No, you havn't got it, he returned successfully 2 weeks later.


On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak.

Two weeks later the attempt was repeated, the aircraft landed at the island on the now frozen ground, with an escorting aircraft Heinkel 111 watching the scene.

While assembling the weather station, a Soviet MBR-2 flying boat from Belusha Buba arrived and tried to attack, but after several attempts it was driven off by the escorting aircraft.



and after a successful take-off both aircraft headed for their home base.

Catch that? Successful take-off?


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:14

No, you havn't got it, he returned successfully 2 weeks later.

No, YOU don't understand...

On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak.

...the plank runway was still there from the initial survey landing and bogging-down and rescue....but they STILL couldn't use it to land because of the soft ground and bad weather. Or had it miraculously vanished somehow??? Rolling Eyes Laughing

Two weeks later the attempt was repeated, the aircraft landed at the island on the now frozen ground, with an escorting aircraft Heinkel 111 watching the scene

The difference between the first attempt to place the station and the second, a fortnight later, was the plummeting temperatures and frozen ground. So much for the quality of German temporary runways FIRST time round, though - THAT'S the point! Razz

There weren't TWO flights to that location - THERE WERE THREE!

1/ The initial surveying flight and landing - when the He 111 got bogged down;

2/ The first placing flight - that couldn't land;

3/ The second placing flight, the one that DID land....but because the ground was frozen, not because of the temporary plank runway! It had let them down on flight number two


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:17

A non point, it was remedied in 15 hours with a plank runway. You still haven't posited any valid points in 3 years.

Did you catch the bad weather comment? you posted it, do you not read the material you post before posting it?


2nd attempt...

Two weeks later the attempt was repeated, the aircraft landed at the island on the now frozen ground,


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:19

Did you catch the bad weather comment?

And did YOU catch the soft ground comment? Given that the plank runway must still have been there from before???

do you not read the material you post before posting it?

Unlike you - I could grasp exactly what it meant and implied Rolling Eyes

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:21

Did you catch the "both aircraft succesfully took off" comment from the very loctaion you are talking about?

Can you grasp its meaning?

Can you grasp how the wood planking in 15 hours got the A/C airborne?


Here it is again, lets see if you can grasp it. Now grasp the fact that the wood was placed "after' the initial landing.


After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 3:28

Did you catch the "both aircraft succesfully took off" comment from the very loctaion you are talking about?

Can you grasp its meaning?

Can you grasp how the wood planking in 15 hours got the A/C airborne?


Here it is again, lets see if you can grasp it. Now grasp the fact that the wood was placed "after' the initial landing.


After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.

Now - can YOU grasp that the plank runway that must still have been there DIDN'T WORK when they went back to actually place the transmitter??? Despite it being there from before they still couldn't land....

THAT was how successful it was.

YOU are choosing to disingenuously focus on just the first set of flights....and trying to deflect attention away from the second and third sorties - the second that failed DESPITE the plank runway, and the third that landed because the ground was suitable, NOT because the plank runway was there Razz

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:04

Can't you grasp it DID work when both A/C left the place? read it again, plus it DID work when the 1st plane landed & then the plank runway was built?

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:05

Can't you grasp it DID work when both A/C left the place? read it again, plus it DID work when the 1st plane landed & then the plank runway was built?

So....you're saying that one time out of three is a good success rate? Razz Razz Razz Razz

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:09

Can't you grasp it was 2 out of 3? The 1 abort was due to weather, not runway?

Can't you grasp 2 planes took off successfully, hence it was a success?

Can you grasp this part also?
"However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island"

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:19

Can't you grasp it was 2 out of 3? The 1 abort was due to weather, not runway?

One of of three...

As I did detail before....

There weren't TWO flights or sets of flights to that location - THERE WERE THREE!

1/ The initial surveying flight and landing - when the He 111 got bogged down; yes, it and the second aircraft DID get off the ground AFTER the plank runway was built...

2/ The first "placing" flight - that couldn't land; "On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak."

The "soft ground" comment is the important comment...because that particular flight was made nearly nine weeks AFTER that plank runway had been built in that location

3/ The second "placing" flight in early October two MORE weeks after the 29th September flight, the one that DID land....but it was able to land because the ground was frozen, NOT because of the temporary plank runway!

On other words -

There were flights into then eventually back out of that location in late July, in late September AND in early October - and ONLY in the late July episode did the plank runway prove to be of any use.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:20

Can you grasp this part also?
"However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island"

Yes, aircraft do have this disturbing habit of landing...eventually, one way or another....

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:22

Taking off also, not 1 but 2 Heinkel 111. 20.000 pounds empty, 30.000 pound full. Plus the runway material was transported in the HE 111, not in a supply ship.

In frozen inhospitable terrain as well. Not the warmer, snowless, flat mostly treeless tougher grass terrain of Iceland. a few men, 15 hours of work.

Game-set-match.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:37

Taking off also, not 1 but 2 Heinkel 111. 20.000 pounds empty, 30.000 pound full. Plus the runway material was transported in the HE 111, not in a supply ship.

So, are you actually, really claiming that a single He111 could carry ENOUGH wooden planking to pave the entire take-off length for an He 111? Rolling Eyes I think you'd better look at your source again...

In frozen inhospitable terrain as well. Not the warmer, snowless, flat mostly treeless tougher grass terrain of Iceland. a few men, 15 hours of work.


Ahem - Novaya Zemlya in JULY wasn't frozen. Even your own source notes that the landing area didn't freeze until early October! Laughing Laughing Laughing Shall we look again? Razz

A short time after the first "Kröte" station was set up on Spitsbergen in July 1942, the weather pilot Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak to ecploit a suitable position for another "Kröte" station on or near Nowaja Zemlya and attempted to land on 20 July on Meshdusharsskij Island At the end of the landing run, the wheels of the Heinkel 111 sank in the soft ground and the aircraft became blocked. The crew informed by radio the base at Banak of the mishap, and another aircraft took off, with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.

However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island and to set up there an automatic weather station in the coming months, when weather and the darkness of the polar night restricted the routine weather flights.

Meanwhile weather reconnaissance on the route to Nowaja Zemlya was flown about twice a week, the farthest position of turning back changing from the region of Belusha Buba to the coast of the northern island near Inostrantseva Bay.

On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak.

Doesn't look frozen to me! It seems quite...soft....

In fact -

Two weeks later (early October - my nore) the attempt was repeated, the aircraft landed at the island on the now frozen ground, with an escorting aircraft Heinkel 111 watching the scene.

I.E. it wasn't frozen in July OR September...but was in October Razz

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:52

Great,now that we've repeatedely established 2 HE 111's successfully took off from a wood plank runway built by a few men in 15 hours in the extreme north, prove you're point you've repeated for several years now that it could not be done at Iceland.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 4:54

Great,now that we've repeatedely established 2 HE 111's succussfully took off from a wood plank runway built by a few men in 15 hours in the extreme north

Have "WE"? Really?...

You're forgetting...

So, are you actually, really claiming that a single He111 could carry ENOUGH wooden planking to pave the entire take-off length for an He 111? I think you'd better look at your source again...

You see....once again I did something YOU didn't do - so I let you run on for an hour or so to make a fool of yourself... Laughing

Time for bed - I'll leave you to work out exactly what you've done for the last dozen or so posts (and I decided not to correct you Wink...if you want to hang yourself, who am I to stop you?)


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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Mon 6 Aug 2012 - 23:14

I didn't claim it, the source did. Talk about embarrassing oneself. That takes the cake.
3 constant years of embarrassment, banging one's head against a wall achieving total failure. intellectual suicide that is. You're more wrong now than you were 3 years ago. If this is how you achieve enjoyment, carry on, you're doing great.



and another aircraft took off, with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew.
http://forums-de.ubi.com/showthread.php/13122-Wetter-im-hohen-Norden-im-WK2-Forums

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Tue 7 Aug 2012 - 2:02

Beechcraft twin engined aircraft Iceland 1942 on unimproved grass. More proofs. It flew all round the island at the time

http://www.flugsafn.is/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=145&lang=is


http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945%20-%201819.html

Rekjavic & outlying centres. Outlying would mean far afield from Reykjavic. It mentions Hofn & Egillstadir among others.

"Beechcraft & Rapides will fly 600-700 hours each.



Rapides, also twin engined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Dragon_Rapide


Rapides and a Beechcraft serve Iceland's scatteredcommunities

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Tue 7 Aug 2012 - 3:13

Great,now that we've repeatedely established 2 HE 111's succussfully took off from a wood plank runway built by a few men in 15 hours in the extreme north

I didn't claim it, the source did. Talk about embarrassing oneself. That takes the cake

But....did it??? Wink Look again....

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Tue 7 Aug 2012 - 3:17

Beechcraft twin engined aircraft Iceland 1942 on unimproved grass. More proofs. It flew all round the island at the time

http://www.flugsafn.is/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=145&lang=is

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945%20-%201819.html

Rekjavic & outlying centres. Outlying would mean far afield from Reykjavic. It mentions Hofn & Egillstadir among others.

"Beechcraft & Rapides will fly 600-700 hours each.

Rapides, also twin engined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Dragon_Rapide

Rapides and a Beechcraft serve Iceland's scatteredcommunities

I love it when you do my work for me - you even posted up the wiki link for the Rapide....

Loaded weight: 5,500 lb (2,490 kg)

Beechcraft 18
Max. takeoff weight: 8,727 lb (3,959 kg)

...and, of course, in case you've conveniently forgotten -

Ju52
Max. takeoff weight: 10,990 kg (24,200 lb)

In other words - the Rapide is less than a quarter the weight of a Ju52, and a Beechcraft 18 ~a third its weight Razz

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Tue 7 Aug 2012 - 3:18

Beechcraft twin engined aircraft Iceland 1942 on unimproved grass. More proofs. It flew all round the island at the time

http://www.flugsafn.is/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=145&lang=is

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945%20-%201819.html

Rekjavic & outlying centres. Outlying would mean far afield from Reykjavic. It mentions Hofn & Egillstadir among others.

"Beechcraft & Rapides will fly 600-700 hours each.

Rapides, also twin engined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Dragon_Rapide

Rapides and a Beechcraft serve Iceland's scatteredcommunities

I love it when you do my work for me - you even posted up the wiki link for the Rapide....

Loaded weight: 5,500 lb (2,490 kg)

Beechcraft 18
Max. takeoff weight: 8,727 lb (3,959 kg)

...and, of course, in case you've conveniently forgotten -

Ju52
Max. takeoff weight: 10,990 kg (24,200 lb)

In other words - the Rapide is less than a quarter the weight of a Ju52, and a Beechcraft 18 ~a third its weight Razz

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Tue 7 Aug 2012 - 3:40

As a P.S. ....

The Waco S converted to land plane configuration that your article mentions flew from Reykjavik's boggy grass strip before the war? Laughing

Gross weight: 3,250 lb (1,474 kg)

In other words - a Ju52 was over seven times heavier than a Waco S class! Rolling Eyes

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 8 Aug 2012 - 0:28

yet JU 52 still operated off grass, yer useless point is?? Heinkel 111 weighed 20.000 pounds empty, 30.000 loaded. Way more than the planes & weights you just posted, Welcome to fail again. The Fairey Battle 10.000 pounds, operated at Iceland before improved airfields were completed. Epic fail.

I love these pointless points you endlessly present. These twin engined planes operated on grass, no actual runways in these outlying parts of Iceland. You've spent an eternity saying it couldn't be done, yet it was.


You're just like a white supremist, prove him wrong 10 times, he still refuses to change position.

recently you've learned a wood plank runway, ( wood carried inside 2nd plane "with tools, planks and beams aboard"), was constructed in 15 hours which enabled these 20-30.000 pound A/C to successfully, did we catch that, successfully takeoff. Plus you learned the allies built a runway at Normandy for multiple engined planes in 3 & 1/2 days. In addition you've learned 3 twin engined planes, 2 Rapides, 1 Beechcraft), operated all round Icelands outer cities/villages without mishap, none of the 3 crashed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 600-700 hours the link mentioned.



Yet you still maintain you're incorrect position. You & all the pseudo experts, Gardner, Carl, some of the staff etc were all wrong. That's you're legacy, when you're 80, you can look back at the enormous amount of energy you've spent being entirely wrong.

3 or so years of it, getting wronger as you proceed along the way. Cutting one's nose off to spite one's face, its gotten really silly & as you're position is entirely gutted, there's nothing to gain from any further discussion about it.







As an asides, the German destroyers & supply ships sailed through the supposedely RN controlled North sea from Denmark to Narvik unmolested,( a much greater distance than from Norway to Iceland), & even after the 2nd naval battle of Narvik when the German destroyers were sunk, hence nothing to prevent the landing of troops, it was several weeks later that the British sent troops there, this means it would even a longer wait before troops would be available to send to Iceland had the Germans landed there mid April. Ample time to build eggcrate/wood runways.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Narvik
After the naval battles of Narvik, the port and its surroundings remained in German hands, as no Allied forces were available to be landed there.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Wed 8 Aug 2012 - 1:10

recently you've learned a wood plank runway, ( wood carried inside 2nd plane "with tools, planks and beams aboard"), was constructed in 15 hours which enabled these 20-30.000 pound A/C to successfully, did we catch that, successfully takeoff. Plus you learned the allies built a runway at Normandy for multiple engined planes in 3 & 1/2 days. In addition you've learned 3 twin engined planes, 2 Rapides, 1 Beechcraft), operated all round Icelands outer cities/villages without mishap, none of the 3 crashed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 600-700 hours the link mentioned.

Here's a BIG hint....

You really really REALLY need to re-read the account of events on Novaya Zemlya again Wink I'll give you one more night to try and work out what you've got wrong....

Just be aware that when the time comes, I will show you up very very badly Laughing

It's not too late though; you CAN still come out of this in one piece....

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 8 Aug 2012 - 1:13

It says what it says, any attempt to alter its meaning by you would be of no value.

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  SecondFront on Wed 8 Aug 2012 - 2:15

It says what it says, any attempt to alter its meaning by you would be of no value

Oh, so true!

I hope you remember that.... Wink

Oh, as a P.S.

Any luck finding a real source for that passage or the material in it apart from an internet PC gaming forum??? Laughing

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Re: Sommerfeldt runway Skanland

Post  Black Hornet on Wed 8 Aug 2012 - 8:07

Typical Phylo disinformation. 9900 lb to 11.500 lb, very close to a Stuka at 12.000 lb. Even 7800 pounds is plenty to get stuck in mud if it were an issue. & they didn't fly without gas or people. & it flew to Hofn & Egillstadir, both on Iceland's east coast, exactly where I posited the JU 52's landing in my original scenario. & again, no tipovers, write-offs, crashes etc as you posited. You're counter arguments all still sent packing.

http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/stats.main?id=61


hts

Super H18 - Empty equipped 2650kg (5845lb), max takeoff 4490kg (9900lb). Turboliner - Empty (airliner) 2993kg (6600lb), max takeoff 5215kg (11,500lb).

Dimensions

Super H18 - Wing span 15.14m (49ft 8in), length 10.70m (35ft 3in), height 2.84m (9ft 4in). Wing area 33.5m2 (360.7sq ft). Turboliner - Wing span 14.02m (46ft 0in), length 13.47m (44ft 3in), height 2.92m (9ft 7in). Wing area 34.8m2 (374sq ft).

Capacity

Most Beech 18s seat two crew and seven to nine passengers in main cabin. Volpar Turboliner conversion seats up to 15.

Production

Over 9000 Beech 18s of all models built between 1937 and 1969, of which 2000 were built postwar. Wartime military production accounts for majority of Beech 18s built (approx 5000).





& if yer still concerned HE 111s can't deliver enough wood Egg crates, again cargo ships in disguise can bring tons of em, or a fast Destroyer. Panzer II's were sent to Norway in steam ships, doubt they had cranes. All yer arguments are still flabby sacks of nuttin.



steamship "Urundi" (around 45 tanks). Plus three (3) Neubau Pz.Kpfw.VI types. (this is the "heavy" sized multiple-turreted tank http://hem.fyristorg.com/robertm/norge/Panzer%20Abt.%20z.b.V.40.html


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